In its continuing efforts to keep the public informed about the ongoing admissions litigation, the University of Michigan makes these transcripts of the trial proceedings in Grutter v Bollinger, et al., Civil Action No. 97-75928 (E.D. Mich.), available to the University community and general public. As is often the case with transcription, some words or phrases may be misspelled or simply incorrect. The University makes no representation as to the accuracy of the transcripts.






                            UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                        FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN
                                 SOUTHERN DIVISION



             BARBARA GRUTTER, for herself
             and all others similarly
             situated,
                        Plaintiff,
                                                  Civil Action
                   -vs-
                                                  No. 97-CV-75928
             LEE BOLLINGER, JEFFREY LEHMAN,
             DENNIS SHIELDS, and REGENTS OF
             THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN,

                        Defendants,

                   and

             KIMBERLY JAMES, ET AL.,

                        Intervening Defendants.
             _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _/        VOLUME 7


                                    BENCH TRIAL
                      BEFORE THE HONORABLE BERNARD A. FRIEDMAN
                            United States District Judge
                       238 U.S. Courthouse & Federal Building
                            231 Lafayette Boulevard West
                                 Detroit, Michigan
                            WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 24, 2001


             APPEARANCES:



             FOR PLAINTIFF:                     Kirk O. Kolbo, Esq.
                                                R. Lawrence Purdy, Esq.












                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                     2




         1
             APPEARANCES  (CONTINUING)
         2

         3
             FOR DEFENDANTS:                 John Payton, Esq.
         4                                   Craig Goldblatt, Esq.
                                             On behalf of Defendants
         5                                   Bollinger, et al.

         6                                   George B. Washington, Esq.
                                             Miranda K.S. Massie, Esq.
         7                                   On behalf of Intervening
                                             Defendants
         8

         9   COURT REPORTER:                 Joan L. Morgan, CSR
                                             Official Court Reporter
        10

        11

        12        Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography.
                      Transcript produced by computer-assisted
        13                          transcript.

        14

        15

        16

        17

        18

        19

        20

        21

        22

        23

        24

        25





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                     3




         1

         2
                                     I N D E X                                     
_ _ _ _ _
         3

         4
             WITNESS                                            PAGE             
_______                                            ____
         5

         6   WITNESSES PRESENTED ON BEHALF OF INTERVENING DEFENDANTS

         7   JOHN HOPE FRANKLIN

         8   Direct Examination by Ms. Massie                     5
             Cross-Examination by Mr. Payton                    126
         9   Cross-Examination by Mr. Purdy                     130
             Redirect Examination by Ms. Massie                 149
        10   Recross-Examination by Mr. Payton                  153
             Recross-Examination by Mr. Purdy                   153
        11   Redirect Examination by Ms. Massie                 155

        12   JAY ROSNER

        13   Direct Examination by Mr. Washington               156

        14

        15
                                   E X H I B I T                                   
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
        16

        17                             MARKED                 RECEIVED                                       
______                 ________
             Exhibit Number 97                                  112
        18

        19

        20

        21

        22

        23

        24

        25





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                     4




         1                                  Detroit, Michigan

         2                                  Wednesday, January 24, 2001

         3                                  9:00 a.m.

         4                            _   _   _

         5                        THE COURT:  Okay, next witness.

         6                        MS. MASSIE:  Intervening Defendants

         7         call Professor John Hope Franklin.

         8                        MR. PURDY:  Your Honor, we don't

         9         intend to have any interruptions today, but may it

        10         still be understood that we have a continuing

        11         objection for the reasons as we set forth before.

        12                        THE COURT:  Continuing objection.

        13                        MR. PURDY:  Thank you.

        14                        THE COURT:  Mr. Franklin, how are you

        15         this morning?

        16                        THE WITNESS:  How are you?

        17                      JOHN HOPE FRANKLIN,

        18         was thereupon called as a witness herein and, after

        19         having been first duly sworn to tell the truth, the

        20         whole truth and nothing but the truth, was examined

        21         and testified as follows:

        22                        MS. MASSIE:  Judge, I don't think

        23         that Professor John Hope Franklin needs too much of

        24         an introduction.

        25                        THE COURT:  I don't think so either.





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                     5




         1         But you may put it just for the record.

         2                        MS. MASSIE:  Just working on this

         3         case has definitely been the greatest honor of my

         4         life, and one of the biggest intellectual challenges

         5         as far as the stimulation of my life and the

         6         opportunity to work with Professor Franklin.  There

         7         hasn't been any greater thing in either category.

         8                        THE COURT:  I am privileged to have

         9         him in my courtroom, so it's nice to have you.

        10                       DIRECT EXAMINATION

        11   BY MS. MASSIE:

        12   Q.    Could you spell your name for the record, please?

        13   A.    John Hope Franklin.

        14   Q.    And that's F-r-a-n-k-l-i-n?

        15   A.    Right.

        16   Q.    When and where were you born, sir?

        17   A.    I was born in Rentiesville, Oklahoma on the 2nd of

        18         January, 1915.

        19   Q.    And where is that town?

        20   A.    Rentiesville, Oklahoma is 17 miles south of

        21         Muskogee, Oklahoma.  Muskogee, Oklahoma is 50 miles

        22         south of Tulsa, Oklahoma.

        23   Q.    Is there anything north of Tulsa.

        24   A.    If it is, it's unknown.

        25   Q.    Tell us about your education, if you would, sir?





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                     6




         1   A.    Well, I began my education in Rentiesville, Oklahoma

         2         where I, first of all, was sitting in the back of my

         3         mother's school room, she was teaching, that's when

         4         I was three years old.  And I learned to read and

         5         write that year to her great surprise.  She was

         6         teaching others, but I was also learning.

         7                        I was in the room, but I kept quiet,

         8         there were no day care centers or anything like

         9         that.  She was babysitting me while she was

        10         teaching.  I went through the first five or six

        11         grades in Rentiesville, and then we moved to Tulsa,

        12         Oklahoma.

        13                        There had been a riot in Tulsa which

        14         delayed our moving there.  And we went to Tulsa,

        15         Oklahoma the tenth of December 1925.  I was ten

        16         years old.  And I went to high school there.

        17                        I graduated from high school there in

        18         1931.  Then I went to Fisk University in Nashville,

        19         Tennessee, from which I graduated magnum cum laude

        20         in May of 1935.

        21                        And then the fall of 1935 I went to

        22         Harvard University as a graduate student in history,

        23         and I got my master's degree that year.  And four

        24         years later I received my Ph.D degree in 1941.

        25                        And I was already teaching, I taught





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                     7




         1         three years by that time.  And I would say that my

         2         career was lodged probably after I got my doctorate

         3         in 1941.  But it was interrupted, of course, by the

         4         war to some extent, and I had various other trials

         5         and tribulations along the way.

         6                        But I began to publish in 1943, and

         7         my first book was published that year.  My second

         8         book two years later, and my third book in 1947.

         9         And a number of books later.

        10   Q.    I know there's a couple of graduate students who

        11         took the day off to come in and hear your testimony.

        12         I'm sure they're now considering giving up academe.

        13   A.    Thank you.

        14   Q.    Tell us about the school where your mother taught?

        15   A.    Well, it was a one-room school.  She was an

        16         elementary school teacher, and she was teaching

        17         reading, writing to the first grade.  I was given a

        18         paper and pencil and in the back row with a desk,

        19         and she would come back there periodically to see

        20         what I was doing.

        21                        And to her great astonishment when

        22         she didn't hear me making any noise she came back to

        23         see what I was doing and I was writing what she was

        24         writing on the board.  And that was the beginning of

        25         my education.





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                     8




         1                        From that point on, I was on my own

         2         and I studied diligently I suppose, I tried to.  But

         3         both my mother and father were very important

         4         intellectual powers or forces in my life.

         5                        My father was a lawyer practicing

         6         first in Ardmore, Oklahoma where he received his law

         7         license in 1907.  The year of the statehood of

         8         Oklahoma.

         9                        And from that point on he practiced

        10         law successfully in Ardmore, Rentiesville, Tulsa.

        11         In fact, he practiced law in Tulsa from 1921 to 1960

        12         the year in which he died.

        13                        By that time I was already chair of

        14         the Department of History of Brooklyn College, the

        15         city of Richmond, New York.  And I had already

        16         taught by that time at Harvard University, and a

        17         number of other institutions as visiting professor.

        18                        I have been a visiting professor at

        19         Harvard University, Cornell University, and the

        20         University of Hawaii and various other places along

        21         the way.

        22   Q.    How many children were there in your mother's class?

        23   A.    I can't remember.  I know the room was crowded, 35

        24         or 40.

        25   Q.    And all of those children were black?





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                     9




         1   A.    Yes, yes.  All the children in the town were black,

         2         all the people in the town were black.  It was an

         3         all black town in Rentiesville, Oklahoma when I was

         4         there.  I was born there in 1915, there were no

         5         whites in the town at all.

         6                        It was primitive life such as you

         7         can't possibly imagine.  No electricity whatever, no

         8         central heating, no heating of any kind which wasn't

         9         made from wood or coal.  No running water, no

        10         library except in my parent's home, the only library

        11         to which I was exposed.

        12                        No facilities of any kind that I can

        13         think of.  No amenities, no amusement, no public

        14         amusement.  Just a few churches, that's about all

        15         that was in Rentiesville.

        16                        And when I left from Rentiesville in

        17         1925 to go to Tulsa, I thought that was a new world,

        18         entirely new world opened up.  Which it would be

        19         difficult to describe, because it was so vastly

        20         different in every conceivable way.

        21                        Traffic, street cars, schools, little

        22         library, not much larger for African Americans than

        23         this witness stand, but it was there.   And it was

        24         an expression of the desire on the part of the

        25         African American community to have a facility like





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                    10




         1         that.

         2                        It was not publicly supported, it was

         3         privately subscribed to.  And the first time I ever

         4         had the opportunity to use books not in my parent's

         5         home, was to go to that little library.  And it was

         6         once more, opened up a new world, entirely new world

         7         to anyone who had not experienced that before.  It

         8         was an amazing experience.

         9                        School in Tulsa was a different kind

        10         of institution from which I had been accustomed.  It

        11         was orderly, fairly large, although the African

        12         Americans population in Tulsa was only about a tenth

        13         of the population of the city.

        14                        The schools was like I couldn't

        15         imagine, it was a large number of schools.  An

        16         institution run by blacks.  But, of course, it was a

        17         public school.  But it was a public--they called it,

        18         I don't know, this was a different kind of

        19         segregation.

        20                        They didn't use the term segregation,

        21         they used separate, The Tulsa Separate Schools.

        22         E.W. Woods was principal of Booker T. Washington

        23         High School, of the Tulsa Separate Schools.  And it

        24         took me a while to understand what that meant.

        25                        It meant that only people of my color





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                    11




         1         could go there.  And it meant that if you were not

         2         of that color, you didn't go there.  It meant also

         3         that you didn't have the opportunities that you had

         4         at Central High School.  Vast complex building on

         5         the other side of town where they taught modern

         6         foreign languages, we had none.  They taught French,

         7         Spanish, German in centralized schools, but nothing

         8         like that.

         9                        So, I went to college without ever

        10         having had a modern foreign language.  And I had to

        11         take--and I knew that by the time I was a sophomore

        12         in college and I was going to major in history.

        13                        And my major professor who was a

        14         young white man, the chairman of the History

        15         Department at Fisk University which was all black,

        16         of course, it had a mix, it was white and black

        17         faculty.

        18                        He almost immediately decided that he

        19         wanted me to go to Harvard.  And we sort of--as an

        20         undergraduate I was doing everything that he wanted

        21         me to do to be certain that I was eligible to go to

        22         Harvard, including the Harvard requirement of two

        23         modern foreign languages in order to qualify with

        24         any advanced degree.

        25                        So, there I was as a sophomore and





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                    12




         1         junior at Fisk University taking elementary courses

         2         in French and German, so that I could be eligible to

         3         qualify at Harvard.

         4                        And I took them and I did qualify at

         5         Harvard in both languages, and was prepared in a

         6         very careful way by him to be able to do the work at

         7         Harvard.

         8                        When I went to Harvard, I had no

         9         problem.  As a matter of fact it was, if I can say

        10         so, it was a push over if that, because of his

        11         careful preparation.  It was no other explanation

        12         for it.

        13   Q.    Were there many Fisk students at that point who

        14         ended up at the Harvard graduate school?

        15   A.    No, there were not many Fisk students at Harvard

        16         graduate school.  Indeed, there were almost no

        17         students, other than white students at Harvard.  I

        18         had no black students, fellow students in any of my

        19         classes at Harvard.

        20                        There were a few at the university,

        21         maybe one in English and two in law school and two

        22         in the Biology Department, and maybe one or two

        23         more.  Two or three other graduates.

        24                        I would say that there might have

        25         been as many as--this is a liberal figure, as many





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                    13




         1         as a dozen students that were African Americans at

         2         Harvard in 1936 when I went there.  In 1935 when I

         3         went there.

         4   Q.    Of thousands?

         5   A.    What's that?

         6   Q.    Of thousands?

         7   A.    Yes, there were 10,000 or more students at Harvard.

         8         And I went to Harvard, of course, it was the pit of

         9         the Depression.  My father had to become what we

        10         describe generously as became bankrupt.  We lost our

        11         home simply because of the extraordinary bite of the

        12         Depression.  The poverty was unspeakable.

        13                        So, that I went to Harvard, I could

        14         not have gone to the University of Oklahoma as you

        15         certainly know.  And the University of Oklahoma not

        16         only did not admit any blacks, no blacks could be in

        17         the town after dark.

        18                        And they gave me a scholarship, out

        19         of state scholarship it was called, and that was for

        20         a hundred dollars if, if I passed my courses.  That

        21         is, I did not have the freedom to fail as they did

        22         at normal Oklahoma.  You were admitted and then you

        23         might or you might not pass.

        24                        But I didn't have that privilege, I

        25         had to pass in order to get that hundred dollars





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                    14




         1         from the state of Oklahoma against--paid toward my

         2         tuition.  And that remained the practice down to the

         3         time that they admitted blacks to Oklahoma in the

         4         1950s.

         5                        Now, the matter of trying to do the

         6         kind of work that I undertook to do in graduate

         7         school and after, it would project my life work.

         8         Brought me into contact with the kind of life that I

         9         hadn't imagined.

        10                        When I took my general examinations

        11         at Harvard in the spring of 1939, I decided to do a

        12         dissertation on North Carolina.  So, I went to

        13         North Carolina and there I went in to see the

        14         director of the state archives.

        15                        And I told him I wanted to do

        16         research on free negroes in North Carolina from 1798

        17         to 60.  And he said, well, I suppose I will have to

        18         do something about that.  He said, I see no reason

        19         why you wouldn't be able to work here, he said, but

        20         when we built this building we didn't anticipate

        21         that anyone of your color would work here.  And so

        22         we don't have any place for you to work.

        23                        He said, but if you will give me a

        24         week I'll try to arrange something.  And I remained

        25         silent and I looked at him and I had my mental





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                    15




         1         adding machine, I was going to have to pay the rent,

         2         board, room and all of that for a week while I

         3         twiddled my thumbs.

         4                        And I just looked at him and he said,

         5         well, what about a half week.  I said, I'll be back

         6         Thursday, this was Monday.  I went back Thursday and

         7         they prepared a place for me.

         8                        They cleared out one of the exhibit

         9         rooms, the smallest exhibit room there was for the

        10         archives or display of archives of materials.  And

        11         they put a desk and a chair and a waste basket in

        12         there.

        13                        And he gave me a key, he said, I'll

        14         give you a key to the stacks because I don't think

        15         we can request the white pages to deliver materials

        16         to you.  So you'll have to get your materials

        17         yourself.

        18                        I said, all right.  He gave me his

        19         key.  He said, you go through the search room that's

        20         where all the whites were sitting and doing their

        21         research.  You go through the search room to the

        22         stacks, and you get what you want and bring it over

        23         to your room and you can work there.

        24                        And I did that and it turned out to

        25         be the most satisfactory arrangement, because I





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                    16




         1         could sort of window shop in the stacks, pull down

         2         what I wanted, things that I thought I might want.

         3                        And I would come through the main

         4         reading room with my dolly and my library card,

         5         laden with materials.  And the white researchers

         6         looked at me with some disdain as well as jealousy.

         7                        And two weeks later the director of

         8         the archives told me and said, I have to take your

         9         key.  And I searched my conduct and wondered what I

        10         had done that was offensive.

        11                        I said what's the matter, he said

        12         well, the white searchers who see you coming through

        13         the room with all of your materials which you have

        14         selected yourself, says that this is a

        15         discrimination against them and they want keys

        16         themselves.

        17                        He said, well, I can't give everyone

        18         keys and I therefore will have to take your key.

        19         And you will have to abide by the regular rules

        20         which, of course, would involve your bringing one

        21         request in, depositing it, then going back to your

        22         room and waiting for that to be delivered to you.

        23                        And I said, well, if that's what you

        24         think it should be, all right.  Now, it was at that

        25         point that I realized the inconsistency and the





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                    17




         1         remarkable ingenuity, if I may put it, of racial

         2         discrimination of those who practiced it.

         3                        I had to work in three libraries.

         4         And within a radius of three blocks of each other,

         5         literally within three blocks of each other.  One of

         6         them was the archives where I described that I had

         7         used a separate room.

         8                        The other was the state library on

         9         the other side of the square.  And there I could go

        10         into the main reading room and work, but there was a

        11         regular place in the stacks for African Americans to

        12         sit.

        13                        And we were not supposed to go take

        14         the books off the shelf or take the newspapers in

        15         there.  But actually we were to make that request,

        16         but we could sit there in the stacks and use the

        17         materials.

        18                        Then on the other side of the square

        19         was the Supreme Court library.  And there were no

        20         restrictions at all.  We sat and did our work at the

        21         same table that white people were sitting.

        22                        I said this is rather strange.  In

        23         the radius of two or three blocks, we had three

        24         practices, three practices of racial distinction or

        25         discrimination or segregation.





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                    18




         1                        And that gave me to understand that

         2         the practice of racial segregation was sort of

         3         improvisational.  That is they made it up as they

         4         went along.

         5                        They have did this on one side of the

         6         block, they did another on the other side of the

         7         block, and another on the other side of the block.

         8         Whatever seemed to pass their minds, as long as

         9         there was distinction.

        10                        As long as there was a mark of, as

        11         old people say, a mark of distinction, a mark of

        12         oppression of some kind.  The differentiation was

        13         there.

        14                        Or another way, not only was this

        15         practice at the highest levels, what I think of

        16         libraries would be fairly high.  It was practiced at

        17         the other extreme, that I couldn't say which was

        18         more praiseworthy or meritorious.

        19                        Outside the city, just outside the

        20         city there were two barbecue joints or places where

        21         you could go.  I didn't go, but some other people

        22         did.  I went once and that was enough for me.  I

        23         didn't have to have a barbecue, I had to have those

        24         papers and things like that in the libraries.  But I

        25         didn't have to have a barbecue.





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                    19




         1                        But this struck me as rather

         2         remarkable, and it was not unlike what they were

         3         doing downtown in the capital square.  You go out to

         4         one of these places, barbecue places.

         5                        One if you went in to one of them and

         6         you wanted to be served, you sat in your car and

         7         young white girls would come out and bring anything

         8         you wanted, serve you with great applaud.

         9                        Across the road was another, and you

        10         could go and sit in your car all day and they would

        11         look out there, and you would be in your car and

        12         they wouldn't come out.

        13                        But you go in the place and you were

        14         welcomed heartedly, warmly.  I said, what's going on

        15         here?  On the one side they say we don't serve

        16         blacks in cars.  On the other side they say we do.

        17                        On the one side they say you're

        18         welcome to come in and eat.  On the other side they

        19         said you can't even come in the door.  You need a

        20         road map, or you need an encyclopedia and a number

        21         of other aides to help you navigate your way through

        22         these racial minds as it were.

        23                        And that gave me to understand that

        24         race distinctions were not very significant, except

        25         to make a difference to.  And it must have done





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                    20




         1         something to the people, it must have given them

         2         some sense of superiority, or it must have given

         3         them a sense of satisfaction if they could be a few

         4         notches above or away from others.

         5                        And I decided that that was a kind of

         6         a sickness, a kind of searching for something that

         7         would give them a sense of security and superiority

         8         and advantage.

         9                        And that to me--see, I found it in

        10         other ways too.  I've described what doing research

        11         at North Carolina meant.  If doing research in North

        12         Carolina was that bad, when I went to Alabama to do

        13         research with the confederate flag flying over the

        14         Archives Building, I didn't know whether I even

        15         wanted to attempt to do research there.

        16                        And the first morning I went in to do

        17         research, I told the woman in the search room that I

        18         wanted these materials, and she said, yes, I will

        19         get them for you.  And she brought them and handed

        20         them to me.

        21                        And I waited for her to tell me what

        22         to do with these materials, with this background of

        23         having waited three days for someone to arrange a

        24         room in North Carolina, I thought that I might have

        25         to wait a week in Alabama or a month.





                          GRUTTER -vs- BOLLINGER, ET AL


                                                                    21




         1                        And she gave me the materials and she

         2         stood there and looked at me.  And I stood there in

         3         a quandary, I didn't know what to do with them, I

         4         didn't know where to go, where to sit.

         5                        I'm in the reading room, but I assume

         6         that that reading room was where I could not sit.

         7         But since she had not indicated to me that there was

         8         a room separate for me in the basement or somewhere

         9         else, I then did what I would do in Detroit at a

        10         library, I went to look for a quiet corner.

        11                        And so I went toward that corner, she

        12         said you can't sit there.  I was like, why don't you

        13         tell me where to sit, I said to myself.  I said,

        14         well, where should I sit, she said, you sit over

        15         here with the others.  She said that's the coolest

        16         part of the room where they're sitting, and they

        17         need to meet you anyway.

        18                        And so she said, you sits there.

        19         Then she made all of them stop doing what they were

        20         doing, and she introduced them to me.  And she said,

        21         now you sit there with the others, so I did.

        22                        But this is all confusing, you see.

        23         You can't be certain what to do, you see.  That's

        24         what I meant by improvisation, you don't know, you

        25         don't know where you stand.  And I work there off





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         1         and on for weeks.

         2                        And at one point I wanted to look at

         3         a set of papers, Governor Winston papers.  And I

         4         said to the person in the search room, I want to see

         5         the Winston papers, they said we can't show them to

         6         you, they're in preparation.

         7                        The only way you can see them is to

         8         get permission from the director of the archives.

         9         Who at that time was Ms. Marie Bankhead-Owens.  And

        10         I said, well, when does she come in.  They said,

        11         well, she comes in, she will be in Thursday

        12         afternoon.  This is Wednesday morning.

        13                        She will be in Thursday afternoon.  I

        14         said, well, how will I know that she is here.  She

        15         says, well, you will know.  Everyone knows when

        16         Ms. Owens arrives.

        17                        So I waited.  And the next afternoon,

        18         indeed, the whole building took on a different

        19         atmosphere.  I said Ms. Owens must be here.

        20                        And I went up to her office and I

        21         told her secretary, I want to have a word with

        22         Ms. Owens.  And she said, well, she's in there, go

        23         in.

        24                        And I went in, and as I went in I got

        25         another lesson.  The secretary did not close the





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         1         door behind me, and when I got in to speak to

         2         Ms. Owens she did not ask me to sit down.  I said

         3         this is another mine field I'm in.

         4                        And she said, what can I do for you,

         5         I told her I wanted to see Governor Winston's

         6         papers.  And she said certainly you can see the

         7         Winston papers and anything else that you want.

         8         You're free to see them, just let me know and I'll

         9         be glad to facilitate your efforts.

        10                        I said, well, I do appreciate that

        11         very much, I'm still standing.  And she said, they

        12         tell me that there's a Harvard nigger in the

        13         building, have you seen him.

        14                        And the secretary whose door was open

        15         and she was listening to the conversation, she said,

        16         that's him, Ms. Owens, that's him.  She said, are

        17         you the Harvard nigger?

        18                        She said, I had no idea.  She said,

        19         you got right nice manners, why don't you sit down.

        20         My first invitation to have a seat.

        21                        She said, where were you born and

        22         raised, I said Oklahoma.  She said, no, no, that's

        23         not where you got those nice manners.  I wanted to

        24         tell her that my mother taught me, I was discreet

        25         enough to let her explore the matter.





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         1                        She said, where did you go to school,

         2         I said, Rentiesville, Oklahoma, Tulsa, Oklahoma.

         3         She said, no, no, I don't mean that.  Where did you

         4         go to school out of the state.  And I said I went to

         5         school at Fisk University in Nashville, Tennessee.

         6                        She said that's it, that's where you

         7         learned those manners.  Nice good old confederate

         8         state.  And I let that pass.  And she then went on

         9         to tell me about the south and about manners and so

        10         forth.

        11                        And she didn't undertake to tell me

        12         why she treated me like that, except that when she

        13         told me of an incident where she had a relationship

        14         with a black woman, wife of the president of

        15         Tuskegee.

        16                        She said, I called her Ms. Moten.

        17         She said, but I wouldn't call you--it would be

        18         beyond the realm of possibility for me to refer to

        19         you as mister, do you understand that?  I'm not

        20         going to ever call you mister, I don't call black

        21         men mister.

        22                        I'll call you doctor, reverend,

        23         professor, whatever comes to mind, except for

        24         mister.  You don't deserve that much respect.  I

        25         said, well, as you will.





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         1                        And the problem with her after that

         2         was that she wanted to talk so much that she took up

         3         so much of my time and I was busy.  And she wanted

         4         to talk to me about the race thing.

         5                        And I began then to think about what

         6         race really meant to her and to people like her.

         7         And I could not escape the conclusion that the only

         8         thing that race meant to her was, well, the only

         9         thing that race meant to these other people that I

        10         talked about.

        11                        Is that they wanted to be certain

        12         that there was maintained a distant, not laterally

        13         but vertically.  A distance where they were

        14         somewhere above a cut above, that's very essential,

        15         very, very essential.

        16                        And whether it's in a library or

        17         whether it's in a hotel or rather it's in school or

        18         wherever, this distance, this vertical distance must

        19         be maintained this superior position.  The position

        20         of advantage must be maintained.

        21                        And I came to the conclusion that the

        22         maintenance of this was so important that they

        23         didn't mind being inconsistent.  They didn't mind

        24         being improvisational, as long as that gave them

        25         this vertical advantage where they were somewhere





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         1         above and somewhere beyond.

         2                        And that to me was a revelation just

         3         to come to that conclusion and to reach the view

         4         that these people were groping for a way to live and

         5         to co-exist with other people.

         6                        And the only way they could do it

         7         comfortably was to have this distance.  To have this

         8         sense of self importance and of superiority, if you

         9         will.

        10                        And I have always had difficulty in

        11         squaring that with the so-called American way of

        12         living, practicing, doing things.  And not only was

        13         this improvisation was inconsistent and incongruous

        14         too, with what we are taught to be the American way

        15         of the practice of equality on the one hand, and

        16         human relations on the other as well.

        17                        This came to me another way when I

        18         was quite young and just starting my career, when

        19         during the time of the war.  And the war came and I

        20         was teaching in Raleigh, North Carolina.

        21                        And, of course, the incident at

        22         Pearl Harbor what happened there was on the Navy

        23         vessels, put the Navy in a very desperate position.

        24         And the men who were in their offices on land, were

        25         rushed out to pick up the pieces as they were to





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         1         serve in active duty in the Navy.

         2                        And this left great vacancies on land

         3         among which was the need for large numbers of petty

         4         officers, people to man the office and whatnot.  And

         5         they sent out a desperate call for volunteers to

         6         come and serve in the Navy.

         7                        So, I decided to volunteer, this is

         8         January 1943, I decided to volunteer.  And I went

         9         down to the Naval Recruiting Station and offered my

        10         services.

        11                        He said, what can you do, the

        12         recruiting officer, what can you do.  I said, you

        13         need people to run offices, he said yes, yes.  I

        14         said, well, I can do that.

        15                        I said I ran the office, I ran the

        16         library at Fisk University for four years, that's

        17         the way I worked my way through college.  He said,

        18         well, what did that mean.  It meant that I could

        19         type and do shorthand and stuff like that.

        20                        I said I have three gold medals in

        21         typing.  And he said, you do?  I said, yes, and I do

        22         135 words a minute at shorthand.  I said I can

        23         operate various kinds of simple machines, business

        24         machines.  And I have a Ph.D from Harvard.

        25                        He said, you have everything but





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         1         color.  I said, oh, he said, yes.  I said, well, I

         2         thought there was an emergency, I apologize for

         3         taking up your time.  And I bid him good day.

         4                        And I left with a solemn resolve if I

         5         may say that, that I wasn't going to the army under

         6         any conditions, there was no emergency.  That they

         7         were looking around for people of certain color, not

         8         of people of certain ability.  And I wasn't going to

         9         fight on their terms.

        10                        The terms that my brother experienced

        11         as a graduate of Fisk and principal of a high school

        12         in Oklahoma.  The sergeant told him when he was

        13         drafted and went in to the Army, that I will spend

        14         my life being certain that you don't do anything

        15         more edifying than peeling potatoes.

        16                        Well, I wasn't going to peel

        17         potatoes, I wasn't going into the Army on the terms

        18         of that sergeant or anyone else and I didn't.  And I

        19         stand before you not ashamed of the fact that I did

        20         not serve my country on my country's terms in

        21         World War II or any war.

        22   Q.    How did that experience affect your brother?

        23   A.    How is that?

        24   Q.    How did that experience affect your brother?

        25   A.    It destroyed him, and he died right after the war.





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         1         Never recovered from the inhuman treatment that he

         2         received, not only at the hands of that sergeant,

         3         but at the hands of various others.  He was a broken

         4         man and died in Veteran's Hospital Brooklyn,

         5         Virginia in 1947.

         6   Q.    Professor Franklin, how did there come to be an all

         7         black town in the middle of Oklahoma?

         8   A.    Well, there were not an all black town, not one all

         9         black town, but 28 black towns in Oklahoma and

        10         Kansas in the period--in the 19th century and period

        11         before World War 1.  Twenty-eight of these towns

        12         established.

        13                        They were, for the most part, the

        14         result of the migration of blacks out of so-called

        15         cotton kingdom, that is out of areas extending from

        16         Georgia over to Louisiana.

        17                        They migrated there with the hope of

        18         escaping the rigors of the deep south, and the

        19         treatment which they received at the hands of the

        20         leaders in the cotton kingdom.

        21                        And they went to these communities,

        22         or they founded these communities with hope that

        23         they could somehow break the ties that caused them

        24         so much distress and humiliation when they

        25         associated with whites.  They wanted to be





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         1         independent, they wanted to be self respecting and

         2         so forth.

         3                        An example is when my father decided

         4         that he had to leave Ardmore, where he was a young

         5         lawyer and practicing there and move to an all black

         6         town.  He had gone to Shreveport, Louisiana to

         7         represent a client in a matter.

         8                        And he went over there with his

         9         client, and when they called the case my father

        10         stood.  The judge said, what are you standing up

        11         for, and he said I'm representing my client in this

        12         case.  And the judge shook his head and said, oh no,

        13         you don't represent anyone in my court.  And he

        14         called him the "N" word, and he said, now you get

        15         out.

        16                        And so that's why he not only came

        17         back to Ardmore, but said, you know, I can't stand

        18         this, I'm going to go where at least I'll enjoy some

        19         self respect.  I'm going to find a place where I

        20         don't have to rub up against this everyday.

        21                        And that's why he and my mother went

        22         to Rentiesville.  But Rentiesville was so small, it

        23         was not really viable as a community, as a community

        24         to support a man who was a lawyer in a small town

        25         where it was not much litigation anyway.  And what





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         1         there was, it was not for profit, shall we say.

         2   Q.    I'm familiar with that phenomenon actually.

         3   A.    Yes.  I think that might be why I decided not to

         4         pursue law as I intended when I went to college, I

         5         wanted to go into history.  It's no defamation of

         6         the legal profession intended.

         7   Q.    How is it, in fact, that your mother came to be a

         8         teacher and your father came to be a lawyer?

         9   A.    Well, my mother was born in West Tennessee in the

        10         village of Gayid, not far from Brownsville,

        11         Tennessee.  The daughter of a very enterprising

        12         farmer who elected to send his daughter and later

        13         some other daughters to college.

        14                        So that they could come back and

        15         train the young people.  There was a scarcity, this

        16         was in the late 19th century, there was a scarcity

        17         to train leaders and teachers and so forth in the

        18         black community.

        19                        So, she was sent away to Roger

        20         Williams University in Nashville, Tennessee to study

        21         and to teach training and come back to Gayid and

        22         teach, and that's what she did.

        23                        But, of course, in Nashville she had

        24         met my father who had come out there from Oklahoma

        25         and they fell in love with each other.  And that led





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         1         to their marriage and going to Oklahoma to live both

         2         of them.  My father and my mother.

         3   Q.    Where did your father go to law school?

         4   A.    He did not go to law school.  My father read law and

         5         studied by correspondence and took the course, took

         6         the examination in 1907 and passed it.  He was

         7         always somewhat distressed that he was only number

         8         two in the bar examination.  The first being a

         9         graduate of the University of Michigan Law School.

        10         And he practiced law from 1907 to 1960.

        11   Q.    Tell us what it was like to be at Fisk and at

        12         Harvard when you were there?

        13   A.    Well, Fisk was like you say, in the old south, the

        14         old confederate south and that's where I learned it

        15         very early it was the confederate south.  I had

        16         grown up in a very interesting racial climate in

        17         Oklahoma.

        18                        There had been the riot, which the

        19         white people of Tulsa were in absolute complete

        20         denial up until 1996, this riot was in 1921.  But in

        21         that period between 1921, the time of the riot and

        22         1931 when I graduated from high school, there was a

        23         very interesting racial relationship, especially

        24         after the riot.

        25                        Where we were free to do as we





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         1         pleased, more or less.  No one wanted to start, no

         2         one wanted to have another riot.  And the white

         3         people wouldn't even admit that there had been a

         4         riot.

         5                        Large number of whites including the

         6         present mayor of Tulsa, and she told me just last

         7         year that she did not know about a riot until just

         8         very recently.

         9                        Meanwhile we enjoyed life and with

        10         absence of this stress, we enjoyed our inferior

        11         position without any intimidation.  We went to these

        12         inferior schools and nobody said much about them.

        13                        We got what we lost, in subject

        14         matter we gained in terms of self respect and that

        15         sort of things.  It was pounded into us by our

        16         teachers.

        17                        When I got to Fisk in the old south,

        18         this is Ms. Owens' confederate south.  I found that

        19         the atmosphere was much more oppressive.  And I was

        20         told that almost immediately.

        21                        I went downtown, when I say downtown,

        22         I mean in the business part of Nashville, the white

        23         part of Nashville downtown when I was a freshman,

        24         indeed, within the months.

        25                        I was 16 years old and I was far from





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         1         home.  Oklahoma to Tennessee in those days was very

         2         far.  And I went downtown to do some shopping, just

         3         to look around more than anything else with some

         4         other classmates.

         5                        And we started back and I went into

         6         the place where you bought a ticket to get on the

         7         streetcar.  And I had only a $20 bill, that was

         8         almost the last $20 bill I had in college.

         9                        But I presented it to the man with

        10         some apologies, I said, I'm sorry this is all I

        11         have.  The streetcar fare was 15 cents, this is all

        12         I have and I am very sorry and you can give me the

        13         change in one dollar bills or whatever you wanted

        14         to.

        15                        And he rose out of his seat, I

        16         thought he was going to jump through the booth.  And

        17         he said, you don't know little nigger can tell me

        18         how to make change.  I didn't know, I thought I was

        19         being very accommodating, very courteous.

        20                        And then he took the time to count

        21         out the change to me in nickels and dimes and

        22         quarters.  Nineteen dollars and 85 cents in nickels

        23         and dimes.

        24                        And he was right, I wouldn't try to

        25         teach him or anyone else after that how to make





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         1         change, if that's what he thought I was doing.  I

         2         thought I was calling myself being accommodating.

         3         And that tend to blight my whole college life.

         4                        I never went downtown Nashville many

         5         times after that.  But I never went without

         6         remembering that problem, I was absolutely

         7         terrified, if you can imagine.  I was 16, I was

         8         terrified by this man.

         9                        And it's a big contrast to the kind

        10         of atmosphere which I grew up where everyone was

        11         holding back and trying to be congenial and not talk

        12         about the riot, which they came and bombed us and

        13         burned us down and everything, and caused me to be

        14         four years tardy in getting to Tulsa in the first

        15         place.

        16                        That was all on the board now and I

        17         was confronted with this strange kind of treatment

        18         that I had never had before.  And that really

        19         clouded my whole college life.

        20                        That was at one end of my college

        21         life.  At the other end, my senior year when I was

        22         applying for Harvard Graduate School, 19 years old.

        23         And I had to take the scholastic aptitude test.

        24         This is before the graduate records exam.  The

        25         scholastic aptitude test is one which I had to take.





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         1                        And I went out to Vanderbilt

         2         University, that's where you had to go to take it.

         3         And I walked in that room and the man who came in,

         4         the professor who came in, looked at me and said

         5         what do you want.  I said this is the room I have to

         6         come to to take the scholastic aptitude test.

         7                        And he threw the test at me, I had to

         8         catch it.  That was not the best atmosphere in which

         9         to try to perform on a test.

        10                        And I don't know what he did with the

        11         test, but I didn't have much competence in his

        12         sending it to where it was supposed to go.  I don't

        13         know what happened to it, perhaps he did send it in,

        14         I don't know.  But I was admitted to Harvard anyway.

        15                        I don't know what my score, I think

        16         my score might have been zilch, it might have been

        17         zero after that experience.

        18                        And as I walked away from that room

        19         on the Vanderbilt campus, a black janitor he said,

        20         were you sitting in that room, I said, yes.  He

        21         said, I have never seen a negro sitting down in any

        22         rooms here.

        23                        He thought it was very strange.  He

        24         said, what were you doing, I said I was trying to

        25         take this examination.  And he was amazed and full





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         1         of wonder that that had happened.  And I was full of

         2         wonder too, and I was very relieved to get off of

         3         that campus.

         4                        So, at the beginning, at the end of

         5         my Nashville experience, I had these two very

         6         unsavory experiences which affected my whole

         7         attitude towards Nashville.

         8                        I was later, much later, the chairman

         9         of the board, a trustee of Fisk University and been

        10         going back regularly both as alumnus and as a board

        11         member.  But I have never felt comfortable there

        12         because of that experience when I was there in my

        13         teens.

        14                        But we had a marvelous time at Fisk,

        15         because Fisk was whereas that all the students were

        16         African Americans, the faculty was racially mixed.

        17         And we learned there in that rather strange and, I

        18         think, some ways unrealistic climate.

        19                        We learned there that white people

        20         were just plain people, just ordinary white people,

        21         no mystery about them.  And the man who sent me to

        22         Harvard turned out to be my best friend outside of

        23         my family.  The best person I ever had any

        24         relationship with.

        25                        And this was a little oasis there,





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         1         where we didn't have any differences, no racial

         2         differences of any kind.  And where I remember so

         3         well when President Roosevelt came to visit the

         4         campus in 1934, I was a senior.

         5                        A student had been lynched, not a

         6         student, I'm sorry.  A young person living on the

         7         Fisk property, the edge of the campus, had been

         8         taken out and lynched the spring of 1934.  And we

         9         were, of course, very much exercised by that

        10         experience.

        11                        And when we learned that the

        12         president was coming to Fisk, the president of the

        13         United States, students decided to bring him in on

        14         the protest.  To petition him to make a statement

        15         about it.

        16                        Well, the president of Fisk was very

        17         distressed about that and persuaded us not to do it.

        18         And I was president of the student government at the

        19         time, and he persuaded me not to do it.

        20                        But this was an experience too, which

        21         I should have mentioned this coloring, my old

        22         feeling about the town and so forth.

        23                        And we were called off from doing

        24         that, that's another story of the president.  The

        25         president of Fisk said he would get us an





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         1         appointment with the president of the United States,

         2         if we would just not badger him when he was on

         3         campus.

         4                        One of the things that we did though

         5         that spring, was to not only to entertain the

         6         president of the United States, the Fisk class

         7         singing and that sort of thing.  But we welcomed the

         8         whole community.

         9                        The president said he was only going

        10         to stop at Andrew Jackson birth place, and Fisk

        11         University.  Well, white people in Nashville

        12         couldn't imagine the president of the United States

        13         would come to Nashville and go to a black school,

        14         and that's all he would do in Nashville.  They

        15         couldn't believe it.

        16                        And we therefore, arranged bleachers

        17         and so forth for everyone who wanted to come and see

        18         the president of the United States.  And as

        19         president of the student government, I was sort of

        20         officiating around and people doing what I told

        21         them, so to speak.

        22                        And one white man came up to me and

        23         said, where are the white people sitting, I said

        24         anywhere.  He said, anywhere, and I said yes.  And

        25         he was very, I don't want to convey that he was





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         1         hostile, he was not.

         2                        He said, you know, this is very

         3         strange.  He said, I voted democratic ticket every

         4         time in my life.  He said, but if Franklin Roosevelt

         5         doesn't think anymore of my vote than to come out

         6         here to a place where I have to sit with black

         7         people, he said I'll never vote the democratic

         8         ticket again.

         9                        And he wasn't hostile, he was

        10         bringing me in on the resolution that he had taken.

        11         He just couldn't do that.  Democrats were going to

        12         do that, then he had to turn his back on them.

        13                        And that put another cast on my view

        14         of this whole thing.  I was utterly and completely

        15         confused by these different attitudes that I saw.

        16         That I continued to see and I continue to see even

        17         in my later years.

        18                        I sometimes think that if I'm going

        19         to understand this, I need to be awarded another

        20         degree.  It's a conundrum, it's difficult to

        21         understand.

        22                        Well, all of these experiences

        23         happened since I--I won't belabor, I won't burden

        24         you with anything since then.  But the experiences

        25         that I've had since I've been 80 years old, and that





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         1         wasn't yesterday you see.

         2                        But I've learned not to be too

         3         surprised, there have been lessons to me and I have

         4         learned more lessons.

         5                        I remember the night before I was to

         6         receive the medal, the Presidential Medal of

         7         Freedom, I gave a dinner party to celebrate that in

         8         Washington at the club which I belonged there.

         9                        And I invited some friends to come in

        10         to have dinner with me that evening, and some of

        11         them had not been to the club before and it was a

        12         very wealthy place, and I was taking them on a tour

        13         of the club.

        14                        And we got up in the library, we were

        15         in the library and I remembered I had two more

        16         guests that hadn't arrived.  So, I would go down the

        17         grand staircase to the lobby, to see if the guests

        18         were there.

        19                        And as I came into the lobby, a white

        20         woman walked up to me and said, listen, go and get

        21         my coat.  She gave me her coat check, she offered me

        22         her coat check.

        23                        I said, madam, if you will present

        24         that coat check to the uniformed attendant at the

        25         club, and all of the attendants here are uniformed,





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         1         perhaps you will get your coat.  And I walked away,

         2         I don't know whether she got her coat.  I didn't

         3         wait to see whether she did.

         4                        I thought that she might meditate on

         5         that for a while and perhaps come to some conclusion

         6         that she had reached out to a person who, in her

         7         view, was there to serve her.  Why otherwise should

         8         I have been there if I wasn't there to serve her.

         9                        She could have looked on the wall and

        10         seen my pictures the Man Of The Year the previous

        11         year, but she didn't.  I guess she didn't.  But

        12         maybe she thought that the Man Of The Year was also

        13         a porter, I don't know.

        14   Q.    What was Harvard like when you were there?

        15   A.    What's that?

        16   Q.    What was Harvard like when you were there?

        17   A.    Well, it was the great university that it is, and I

        18         didn't run into many racial incidents at Harvard.  I

        19         know that it was--there was so few of us there, so

        20         few blacks there that I think we were inconspicuous

        21         to the point of being almost invisible.

        22                        I remember that when I was taking a

        23         course in economics, in this world economic history,

        24         one of the very distinguished people in world

        25         economic history, counsels, advisors, presidents of





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         1         that sort of thing.

         2                        He told a so-called Negro joke in

         3         class and I'm sitting there, but he was oblivious to

         4         the fact that I might have been offended or that I

         5         was even there.  It just weren't enough of us there

         6         to make any difference, no critical mass or

         7         anything.  He didn't see me.

         8                        You got one person and 35 or 40

         9         people, I guess, you can't be seen I don't care how

        10         dark you are.  Your consciousness is not extended to

        11         that point.

        12                        I think that the thing that I

        13         experienced at Harvard, most searing experience, it

        14         was not the anti--not the race, not racism but

        15         anti-Semitism.  And that was really a remarkable

        16         revelation to me.

        17                        I didn't know what anti-Semitism was,

        18         I had been so busy trying to wear my way through my

        19         problems, life problems that I had before me, that I

        20         did not know that other people had problems.

        21                        So, when I was a member of the

        22         Henry Adams Club, which is a club of American

        23         history students at Harvard.  The time came for us

        24         to have officers, to nominate officers for the

        25         following year, we had a nominating committee.





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         1                        And I'm so naive that I did not

         2         realize that when was I proposed for the nominating

         3         committee, number one person on the nominating

         4         committee, the first person proposed.

         5                        I didn't know that I was to be

         6         certain that I wasn't nominated for anything.  So,

         7         when the nominating committee met and the chair, I

         8         was not the chair, the chair said, well, for whom

         9         should we have for president.

        10                        And I named the person who I thought

        11         that should have the president.  I said, he's an

        12         outstanding student, best student in our group.  And

        13         I think he should be in.  He's faithful, active in

        14         the club, he should be the president of the club.

        15                        Dead silence all the way around,

        16         absolute silence.  I don't know what's going on,

        17         what's the matter.  And then one of the students

        18         spoke up and said, well, he doesn't have all of the

        19         attributes of a Jew.  But he's still a Jew.

        20                        I'm so speechless, I don't even know

        21         what they're talking about.  And I finally was able

        22         to indicate to him, I don't know what these

        23         attributes are that the students have, what are

        24         they.

        25                        Well, you know, but I did not know.





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         1         And I was speaking honestly, I did not know.  I

         2         never heard that before.  And so I really will have

         3         to go back--it struck me as so untoward, so un

         4         everything, so unAmerican that I don't even remember

         5         what happened.

         6                        I can only say that that person when

         7         all of these others fell by the way side, most of

         8         them didn't even get their degrees, this person

         9         became the most distinguished fellow in the history

        10         of Harvard University.

        11                        He thought there were a few things,

        12         and I was proud that we remained friends for 60

        13         years.

        14                        But the other thing about Harvard was

        15         that the climate was such that I was able to

        16         understand immediately what there was about it that

        17         caused so many young people to become full of

        18         themselves and take themselves more seriously than I

        19         thought they should.

        20                        As I said, I didn't have any

        21         problems, I didn't have any difficulty with academic

        22         problems at all.  I had some financial problems, but

        23         those were solved after the first year with

        24         fellowships and so forth.

        25                        And when I finished my exams and I





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         1         was asked by my major professor if I wanted any

         2         further fellowships, and I said no, I just want to

         3         leave, I want to get out of here.  The atmosphere

         4         was so stifling to me and I wanted to leave and

         5         become myself again.

         6                        The pretensions were so great, and

         7         the effort to be like professors was so great that I

         8         thought it was no place for me, so I left.  And I

         9         was glad to get a job and write my dissertation when

        10         I was working.  I was writing on their money, on

        11         their fellowship money.

        12                        I was happier and got more

        13         experience, and learned more and was out of that

        14         climate that--you see I began to realize that it was

        15         something wrong with that climate, it was

        16         anti-Semitic.  So, probably I didn't see it because

        17         it was anti-black too, much more than I really could

        18         feel or experience.

        19                        It gave me, it put me on notice that

        20         if Jews were special I must be very special.  In an

        21         unsavory and unattractive way.

        22   Q.    You said something earlier, Professor Franklin, that

        23         I didn't understand when we first talked about the

        24         riots in Tulsa delayed your arrival in that city by

        25         four years?





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         1   A.    Well, my father had gone to Tulsa the year before to

         2         start a new life, to make a living.  And he did

         3         well, he was prospering and everything.  So much so

         4         that he said that we could come up at the end of the

         5         school year, he would come and get us and everything

         6         at the end of the school year and we'll be together

         7         again.

         8                        And I so was very anxious because I

         9         was six and going to be with my daddy again.  And we

        10         were packed and waiting for him to come.  And he was

        11         coming on the point of day the first of June.  We

        12         waited and he didn't come.  The next day he didn't

        13         come.  The next day he didn't come.

        14                        There was no means of communication.

        15         There was no telephone, there was not a telephone in

        16         Rentiesville.  There weren't many telephones

        17         anywhere in those days.

        18                        Finally my mother read in the

        19         newspaper that had been dropped off at Rentiesville

        20         from Muskogee, down in Muskogee, the Muskogee Daily

        21         News, that there had been a riot down in Tulsa.  And

        22         there were many casualties.

        23                        And then she didn't know whether her

        24         husband, our father, was living or dead and didn't

        25         know that for several more days.  And finally we got





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         1         a note from him.

         2                        When the riot broke he stepped out of

         3         his place, his office, to see what was going on and

         4         he was seized, taken to a place of detention.  Kept

         5         for several days there.

         6                        When he got out everything that he

         7         had had been destroyed.  The house that he rented

         8         for us had been burned to the ground.  His office

         9         had been destroyed, the building had been wrecked.

        10         He couldn't find anything, any of his possessions

        11         anywhere.

        12                        And that kept him really from writing

        13         us or communicating with us for some days.  And

        14         because when he could get around, when he did get

        15         around to communicating with us, he couldn't come

        16         because by that time he had established his law

        17         offices in a tent.  There was no buildings in the

        18         black community, no building at all.

        19                        He established his law office in a

        20         tent, he stayed there at night.  And he was busy

        21         with his clients suing the insurance companies,

        22         suing the city, suing the mayor, everyone in sight

        23         for some compensation, reimbursement and so forth.

        24         So he was so busy he couldn't come.

        25                        And he finally was able to--the city





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         1         had passed an ordinance saying that there could be

         2         no reconstruction in that section of town unless it

         3         was a fireproof construction.

         4                        Well, they didn't have any money to

         5         build fireproof.  My father advised his clients to

         6         build with orange crates, if necessary, build with

         7         anything.  And they, of course, were arrested for

         8         violating the city ordinance.

         9                        And he took that case to the state

        10         supreme court and it was declared, the ordinance was

        11         declared unconstitutional.  So we had to wait four

        12         more years and then we went out to Tulsa in 1925.

        13                        And that's when I found what Tulsa

        14         was like, and what life was like there, how

        15         different it was, how wonderful it was in so many

        16         ways.

        17                        But this climate that I'm talking

        18         about, which is kind of an artificial climate, but

        19         one that was maintained and that gave us a sense of

        20         freedom and of well-being that it was probably not

        21         quite true.

        22                        But it was enough for us to feel that

        23         we could go where we wanted to, and do what we

        24         wanted to do and be what we wanted to and without

        25         any serious consequences, or adverse consequences,





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         1         and we did.

         2                        But, of course, the town couldn't

         3         have been more segregated or more Jim Crowe than it

         4         was.  And my parents, of course, would not and did

         5         not ever demean themselves by accepting segregation

         6         of any sort.

         7                        When I went to the courtroom with my

         8         father, if the blacks were not segregated by law but

         9         by custom they were, he never let me sit over there.

        10                        If it was a jury trial and the jury

        11         was sitting, then he brought me to the bar and I sat

        12         with him at the bar.  If not, he said you can sit

        13         you can sit over there where the jury is supposed to

        14         sit.

        15                        When the Chicago Symphony Opera came

        16         to town my mother was a musician she loved the

        17         music, she wouldn't go to the opera because it was

        18         segregated.

        19                        And she said, well, if you want--I

        20         said, I want to see the opera.  She said, well, it's

        21         segregated we don't go to anything like that, but if

        22         you want to demean yourself, if you want sell your

        23         dignity that way, go ahead.

        24                        And I went with music teacher and so

        25         forth, I went.  I told this story in a PBS





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         1         documentary and the director of the Metropolitan

         2         Opera in New York saw it and wrote to me, and said

         3         I'm sorry you learned a little opera under those

         4         conditions, but I'm glad you've learned to love it.

         5                        From now on you will never have to do

         6         that again, you can be my guest in my box at the

         7         Metropolitan whenever you want to.  And Joseph--and

         8         I have become very good friends because I go to the

         9         opera as his guest.

        10                        But they wouldn't tolerate any kind

        11         of segregation.  So, I grew up in a household that

        12         was hostile to the practices of racism.  And I

        13         learned, I learned what they were, although--I

        14         learned what that was, although I didn't practice it

        15         as a youngster.

        16                        I would have to wait and learn what

        17         the adversities were before I would be able to

        18         practice it.  As I was able to practice it after I

        19         went to college.

        20   Q.    You were able to practice?

        21   A.    To abstain from going into segregated places.  As a

        22         child I did not, as an adult I did.  It was

        23         something that I was forced to like during the

        24         research and that's all.

        25   Q.    You went back to Fisk to teach, is that right?





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         1   A.    Uh-huh.  To Fisk?

         2   Q.    Yes.

         3   A.    Yes, I went back only for one year to teach.  I

         4         taught there in 1936, '37.  Just an interim while I

         5         was in graduate school, I went back to teaching at

         6         my friend's place, the man who sent me to Harvard,

         7         he was going away.

         8                        And by that time I had a master's

         9         degree, and although I was a very, very junior

        10         teacher at Fisk, they tolerated me for one year.

        11         And I taught there and then I went back to graduate

        12         school and finished my Ph.D.

        13                        But I stayed out of downtown

        14         Nashville for the most part when I was back there

        15         for that one year.

        16   Q.    What were your other teaching jobs, and how did race

        17         become a factor?

        18   A.    Well, I taught at Fisk, St. Augustus college in

        19         Raleigh.  Then I taught at North Carolina College

        20         for Negros in Durham.

        21                        It was when my luck ran out in

        22         Raleigh with the draft board, and they were about to

        23         draft me that I changed colleges.

        24                        And I called Dr. Sheperd, the founder

        25         and the current president of North Carolina College





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         1         for Negros.  And this is after I was not able to do

         2         anything else in Raleigh, and after the president of

         3         St. Augustus College told me he would not write a

         4         letter to my draft board.

         5                        He said because he thought the Army

         6         would be good for me.  And it would teach me to hang

         7         up my clothes, to be neat.  And I told him my mother

         8         had done that already.  And I got up and left.

         9                        I called the president of North

        10         Carolina College in Durham, North Carolina for

        11         Negros in Durham.  I said is that offer that you

        12         made to me last year still standing, and he said, of

        13         course.

        14                        I said I'll come to your college,

        15         I'll come over and teach under one condition, he

        16         said what's that.  I said, you're on the Draft

        17         Appeal Board, aren't you?  He said, yes.  I said

        18         that you will keep me out of the Army.

        19                        He said, well, it would be a disaster

        20         for the United States for you to go into the Army.

        21         He said, I will be glad to keep you out, maybe we

        22         can win the war then.  So I said I'll come right

        23         over.  So I went over there and I spent four years

        24         there.

        25                        Then I went to Howard University, at





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         1         that time I had published several books and I went

         2         to Howard University as a full professor.  I was 26

         3         years--I'm sorry, 32 years old.

         4                        And then I stayed there nine years

         5         and I went to Brooklyn College where I went as

         6         chairman of the department and professor, it was

         7         1956.

         8                        And it was there that I got some more

         9         experiences in this life of what it means.  I

        10         learned a great deal about northern racism.

        11                        Brooklyn College is located in a

        12         wonderful residential section of Brooklyn.  And I

        13         was living in an apartment, my wife and my son and I

        14         were living in an apartment up on east--when I saw

        15         all of these lovely houses there down there, and I

        16         said, well, it must be wonderful to walk to work.

        17         And so I began to look for a house.

        18                        And no real estate dealer in Brooklyn

        19         would show me a house.  I'd read in the New York

        20         Times here is this house for sale, then I would go

        21         and see the real estate dealer who advertised the

        22         house, it wasn't available for me.

        23                        And I worked at that for several

        24         months and I wasn't getting anywhere.  I wasn't

        25         seeing a house, I couldn't even see a house.





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         1                        And then I concluded that I wasn't

         2         going do see a house through the real estate

         3         dealers, and I decided the next level of search

         4         would be to find houses offered for sale by the

         5         owners.

         6                        And I would confront the person who

         7         was the sales person who would be the owner.  And I

         8         began to see some houses, but not many.

         9                        And as I went into the homes that

        10         were for sale by the owner, I remember one instance

        11         we came out of this house, he told us that it was

        12         just about concluded the sale.  But if that fell

        13         through, he would be glad to call me and took my

        14         telephone number.  I didn't hear from him.

        15                        But I came out of that house,

        16         apparently the word had got through that we were

        17         looking for a house.  This black couple was looking

        18         for a house, and every white person in the block was

        19         out in front of their house.  All the way down the

        20         block, to watch to see this black couple come out.

        21         It was sort of sending a message, I assume.

        22                        I thought I could read the message,

        23         it said that they didn't want me in that block.

        24         Well, they couldn't get me anyway, because the man

        25         didn't call.





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         1                        We finally found one house though

         2         that sounded interesting and we called, it was a

         3         Saturday afternoon, we called this owner and this

         4         owner said, what are you doing and I said, well,

         5         we're not anything that we can stop doing--that we

         6         can't stop doing.

         7                        He said, well, why don't you come

         8         down here and see this house.  And went down to this

         9         house and we looked at it, and we were very

        10         interested in the house as we approached it.

        11                        We parked and we rang the bell and

        12         the man came to the door.  He and someone else was

        13         sitting in the kitchen, you could see it, this

        14         living room, dining room, kitchen, you could see

        15         that.

        16                        And he said just a minute, and he

        17         went back and he took a drink.  And he came back, he

        18         said you want to see the house, you're the one who

        19         called, and I said, yes.

        20                        He said come in.  He said, this is

        21         the living room, I said I thought that was the

        22         living room.  I didn't know, but I thought that.

        23                        Then I attributed his change in

        24         attitude to the drink that he had taken, that that

        25         might be a misreading.





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         1                        But by the time we got past the

         2         living room and into the dining room, he began to

         3         push his house.  He began telling me how good it was

         4         and that how much money he had put into it, and that

         5         I might be very pleased with it.

         6                        And he said, how do you like this, I

         7         said it is all right, I like it.  He said, you know

         8         how much money I put into this basement.  And then

         9         he took me upstairs, me and my wife and my son

        10         upstairs.

        11                        And then he finished showing me the

        12         house, he was pushing the house on me.  So I told

        13         him that I would let him know.  He called me the

        14         next week and said, what about the house, you want

        15         it?

        16                        I said, I think so, but I've got to

        17         go away to see my father, he's not well.  He said,

        18         when are you coming back, I said I'll be back by the

        19         first of December, we'll be back soon.

        20                        He said, look, if you want this house

        21         I'll take it off the market now, I'll wait for you.

        22         I said, well, I think I want it, he said I'll take

        23         it off, I want you to have it.

        24                        And so I came back and I told him I

        25         thought I would take it.  So, we signed the contact,





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         1         my lawyer was in on the deal, and my lawyer, my

         2         Brooklyn lawyer.

         3                        And he said, well, how we going to

         4         pay for this house, he said, well, we've got to find

         5         the money.  And he said, do you have an insurance, I

         6         said yes, and I told him the insurance company.

         7                        He said, well, your problems are

         8         over.  He said, they had set aside several scores of

         9         millions of dollars for their own customers, their

        10         own policy holders.

        11                        He said, what's your policy, I got it

        12         out for him.  How much was it, $20,000.  He said,

        13         what's the name of your insurance agent, I told him.

        14         So, the next day I got a call from my insurance

        15         agent.

        16                        He said, now I don't want you to get

        17         a misunderstanding, we have done a lot for you

        18         people.  I said, what are you talking about.  He

        19         said, well, you want to borrow money to buy a house,

        20         I said yes.  And you've got lots of money for your

        21         policy holders.

        22                        He said, it was not really for

        23         everybody.  He said you want to buy a house on

        24         New York Avenue, I said yes, 1885, he said that's

        25         the wrong block.





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         1                        He said, I can't lend you money to

         2         buy a house that far down because you're leaping

         3         over a white neighborhood going into this other

         4         neighborhood, he said, that's too far.  He said you

         5         have to take it neighborhood by neighborhood.

         6                        I said, well, I want to live in that

         7         neighborhood.  He said, we can't lend money for

         8         that.  I said, well, what's this money for that

         9         you've got.

        10                        He said it's for our customers, but

        11         they have to conform to the pattern of living that

        12         we want them to conform to.  I said, so I can't buy

        13         in that block, that area, because I'm black, he said

        14         that right.

        15                        He said, but I'll get the money for

        16         you, I said from where, he said another company I

        17         can get them.  I said well, then that's the company

        18         that I should be insured by.

        19                        And I said and as of now, you can

        20         consider me not your customer anymore.  And I turned

        21         him down.  I turned his offer to get the insurance

        22         company to get the money for me.

        23                        And there I was back where I started.

        24         I went to my lawyer, Murray Gross, I said Murray, I

        25         still don't have the money, this man won't let me





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         1         have money from this insurance company and I

         2         cancelled my $20,000 insurance with him.

         3                        And we have to start over.  He said,

         4         well there's banks, we'll get it from the bank.  And

         5         he told me the full story of this when I was about

         6         to leave Brooklyn for Chicago.

         7                        He pulled out the folder of requests

         8         that he made to New York banks.  Not one bank in

         9         New York would let me have the money, not one.  This

        10         included the bank in Harlem, it was a front for a

        11         downtown bank anyway.

        12                        So there I am with no bank to lend me

        13         money.  And then he told me then how his father was

        14         on the board of the South Brooklyn & Savings Bank

        15         and he got the money through his father.  That's the

        16         only way I got money to buy that home.

        17                        I was so determined to have it and I

        18         was determined to have it by the time the insurance

        19         company turned me down, that he then decided that he

        20         would help me get the money, and he did from the

        21         bank on which his father served as a board member.

        22         That was quite an experience for me.

        23                        In the community where I had been the

        24         favorite, my picture was on the front page of the

        25         New York Times when I went to Brooklyn. It was a





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         1         spectacular historical appointment, an African

         2         American the chair of the department at Brooklyn

         3         College of the City University, that's a first.

         4                        But although I could teach their

         5         children, I could not live among them.  That's what

         6         the message was.  And I felt that perhaps I was like

         7         the barber who could cut their hair, but could not

         8         belong to their church.  Or the maid who kept their

         9         children, but could not sit down to eat at the table

        10         with them.

        11                        I didn't know.  This is a strange

        12         kind of treatment of a person who do they entrusted

        13         their young people to me.  So that when I moved in I

        14         felt that I was moving among enemies.  And I was.

        15                        The man next door would not move his

        16         car so that the moving van could come into the curb

        17         by the house.  It had to sit out in the middle of

        18         the street and take our belongings out of the van.

        19                        It took hours, tied up traffic and

        20         everything but he didn't care.  I got anonymous

        21         calls from people that I knew that they hated us,

        22         they lived in the same block.  Telling me things

        23         about myself, telling me I thought I was more than I

        24         was.

        25                        One time we went out, my son and I





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         1         went out to paint the picket fence in front of our

         2         house, apparently the word got around in the

         3         neighborhood up and down in the block that we were

         4         there, not to destroy the neighborhood, but to

         5         improve it I suppose they might have said.  It was a

         6         half gallon of paint to put on a picket fence.

         7                        But they all came and stood and

         8         looked across the street.  Just looked, didn't say a

         9         word.  The silent treatment they gave me.

        10                        And it was the end of my wife's

        11         career because they began to taunt my son who was

        12         six years old.  These are adults.  Frightening him

        13         when he would ride on his bicycle.

        14                        Telling him, aren't you afraid to be

        15         here and that sort of thing.  And he would come home

        16         and tell us what they said.  And my wife said, I

        17         must be here for him.

        18                        So, she gave up her librarian career

        19         and remained home until he went off to college.

        20         Never set without him, never being without him.

        21         Never letting him become a latch key kid, she was

        22         there whenever he came home from school.

        23                        So it was my northern exposure to

        24         racism was not better than my southern exposure.

        25   Q.    Was that different when you went to Chicago





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         1         subsequently?

         2   A.    What's that?

         3   Q.    Was that different?

         4   A.    It was largely different when I went to Chicago.  By

         5         that time I had become accustomed to walking to

         6         working to work, you see.  And so in Chicago I

         7         wanted to walk to work.

         8                        But there the University of Chicago

         9         controlled all the real estate in that area and they

        10         secured the home for me.  They were the intervenors,

        11         sort to speak.

        12                        They knew that a certain professor

        13         was putting his house up for sale, because he was

        14         going to Vassar, as president of Vassar.  And so

        15         they said, if you like this house we will arrange it

        16         so that you can get it.

        17                        And I liked it and we purchased it,

        18         and it was that.  And the second day we were there,

        19         or maybe the same day we moved in, the youngsters in

        20         the neighborhood learned that there was a youngster

        21         in the neighborhood in the house, so they wanted to

        22         know if they could come in and visit with him and so

        23         forth.  And they welcomed him.

        24                        We only had one incident, and that

        25         was when my son who by this time was becoming fluent





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         1         in French.  Belonged to the French Club which was

         2         made up of adults and students.

         3                        And he had gone across the street

         4         from our house to the home of one of the wives of a

         5         professor in the English Department.

         6                        And the University of Chicago

         7         policeman saw him coming out of this house and he

         8         stopped him.  And he said, what are you doing in

         9         this neighborhood, why are you coming out of this

        10         house.  He said, I live across the street.  And they

        11         wanted to know what I did.

        12                        And then my son came into the house

        13         out of breath and he said, the police, University

        14         Police stopped me and wanted to know what I was

        15         doing in the neighborhood.

        16                        And I called Edward--the president of

        17         University of Chicago that moment.  And told him

        18         that the person who was patrolling that neighborhood

        19         had stopped my son.

        20                        I said he cannot grow up being

        21         stopped by the University of Chicago Police, I want

        22         this stopped now.

        23                        He called the policeman in and

        24         reprimanded him and issued an order to the police

        25         department of the University, that they were not to





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         1         do this, not to accost young blacks in the

         2         neighborhood because it was a presumption, it was

         3         early profiling you see.

         4                        It was a presumption that something

         5         was wrong if he was coming out of one of those

         6         houses.  And I said you can't do this, my son cannot

         7         like that, we cannot live in this situation.  And

         8         that was stopped immediately.

         9                        That was the only experience that we

        10         had that I would say untoward or adverse.  And he

        11         lived happily ever after that at that school and

        12         went on to Stanford after that.

        13   Q.    Chicago is your last appointment before Duke, is

        14         that right?

        15   A.    Yes, I retired from the University of Chicago in

        16         1980, driven out by the weather.  And retired to

        17         Durham where I wanted to live.  I was a fellow of

        18         the National Humanity Center, I was a senior fellow

        19         at the National Humanity Center.

        20                        And I was there writing the life of

        21         George Washington Williams, one of my subjects.  And

        22         the second year there I was invited to be the Duke

        23         professor at Duke University.

        24                        So, I didn't go from Chicago to Duke,

        25         I went from Chicago to Durham to the National





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         1         Humanity Center, then I became a professor of the

         2         Duke.  Called out of retirement, I had no intention

         3         of teaching anymore.

         4                        But those were eight or nine years of

         5         the most delightful times of my life of teaching at

         6         Duke.  Both first and the second year.  And then in

         7         the law school I taught in the law school for seven

         8         years, teaching American constitution.

         9   Q.    What made you like Duke so much?

        10   A.    Well, it was a different kind of experience, and I

        11         was invited to be the James B. Duke professor.  I

        12         had had two chairs, one in this country and one in

        13         England.  And I was accustomed to chairs.

        14                        But Duke had never had an African

        15         American sitting in a chair, named chair, and I

        16         thought that it would be a good experience for Duke.

        17         And that was one of the main reasons that I

        18         accepted.  And I think it was good experience for

        19         Duke.  And I hastily say that it was for me too.

        20                        I said this was some crowning

        21         experience of my career, and a very packard one.  It

        22         was no unhappy experiences about that at Duke at

        23         all.  And they have been very good to me and paid me

        24         homage that I could be paid, I think.

        25                        I have an honorary degree from Duke.





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         1         There's the John Hope Franklin Center for Africans

         2         and African Americans documentation at Duke.  And on

         3         the 8th of February, they will open the John Hope

         4         Franklin Center for Interdisciplinary and

         5         International Studies, the whole building.

         6                        It will open on the 8th of February.

         7         So I have no quarrel with Duke about what they do.

         8   Q.    I will say though that on the honorary degree

         9         they're not really standing out a list of

        10         institutions that you have degrees from, it's

        11         probably easier to go through then the list of ones

        12         that have?

        13   A.    I wouldn't say that.  There are maybe a thousand

        14         colleges and universities in that country, two or

        15         three thousand, I have only 128 honorary degrees.

        16   Q.    Tell us about your scholarship, Dr. Franklin?

        17   A.    Well, you mean my public work, my writing?

        18   Q.    Yes.

        19   A.    I was very fortunate in picking a subject for my

        20         doctorate dissertation, which at the end of the line

        21         that is when I finished with it, my mentor at Howard

        22         Professor Shaveying announced at my final

        23         examination, said my dissertation was ready to be

        24         published.  He recommended that I publish it, that

        25         it be published.





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         1                        Mr. Crittenton the head of the

         2         North Carolina Archives, the one who put me in a

         3         separate room and so forth.  Who was a Yale Ph.D in

         4         history, by the way.  And upon reading my

         5         dissertation, asked if he could send it to the

         6         University of North Carolina Press, he says it's

         7         ready to be published.  So he did and they published

         8         it.  They published it.

         9                        Its been published and republished

        10         and reprinted.  And the University of North Carolina

        11         Press has even brought out a new edition on it the

        12         last three or four years. That's at one end.

        13                        And then my second publication it was

        14         off of one of my students.  I was lecturing on the

        15         Civil War at St. Augustus College and one my

        16         students came up to me and said, you know, you're

        17         talking about the Civil War and it reminds me that

        18         we have a Civil War diary that's been in the family

        19         since 19--he said since the end of the Civil War.

        20         And would you like to see it and I said, yes.

        21                        And he brought it, he sent for it and

        22         it came up, and I read it and it was so interesting.

        23         It was a diary of a white man who at the age of 57

        24         years old, wanted to go into the Army and he did.

        25         He enlisted in the Union Army, but he was put in the





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         1         Infantry, you know, how long a 57 year old would

         2         last in the Infantry.

         3                        And he was then transferred after

         4         1864, he was transferred into the recruiting

         5         section.  And he was dispatched to recruit black

         6         soldiers after the United States proclamation, to

         7         recruit black soldiers.

         8                        And he kept an account of that.  And

         9         I then published that as a Civil War diary of

        10         James T. Ayers.  That's just been reprinted by the

        11         Louisiana State University Press this year.

        12                        Then I began to work on the Militant

        13         South.  And I was in the middle of that when I was

        14         asked if I would be interested in writing a history

        15         about African Americans and I said no, I'm busy.

        16         I'm busy doing this.

        17                        But the head of the college kept

        18         nagging me and nagging me and finally I relented,

        19         and agreed to write from Slavery To Freedom, The

        20         History Of African Americans.  That was 57 years

        21         ago.  53 years ago, I'm sorry.  54 years ago.

        22                        And that, of course, has gone through

        23         eight editions.  And it's used widely.  It's, I

        24         guess, between three and four million copies are in

        25         print.





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         1                        And I then proceeded to do other

         2         things, write out for other books.  I wrote a book

         3         at the University of Chicago on the subject of

         4         Reconstruction After The Civil War.

         5                        The Militant South which I postponed

         6         to write From Slavery To Freedom, the Harvard

         7         University Press published it.

         8                        That's a very interesting angle.  I'm

         9         writing my autobiography now, and the only thing I'm

        10         finding is the actual historians through that book

        11         on the Militant South.  Which is not about blacks at

        12         all, it's about whites.

        13                        There was a feeling that maybe I was

        14         not qualified to write about whites.  And the reader

        15         whom I know now who it was, reading it for the

        16         Harvard University Press said that, I don't see why

        17         you need a Negro view of the south.

        18                        But if you insist on having a Negro

        19         view of the south, maybe Franklin is the best person

        20         you can get to do it.  That's in the review which he

        21         submitted to the Harvard University Press, which I

        22         later did receive.

        23                        And I said to the director of the

        24         Press, I don't see no Negro view of the south, it's

        25         a view of the south period.  The director of the





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         1         Press said, we understand that, that's why we wanted

         2         it and they published it.

         3                        Then I wrote a book on the

         4         Emancipation of Proclamation from a textual study of

         5         the Emancipation.  Like Lincoln came to write it and

         6         so forth.

         7                        And then I wrote a book, another book

         8         on white southerners it's called Southern Odyssey

         9         Travel of the Annabella North.  Which I described

        10         the addictions that southerners had to the north, it

        11         was a real addiction.

        12                        So much so there were large numbers

        13         of them in the north at the time of the Civil War.

        14         And they ran home from the war, but the day the war

        15         was over they began to come back.  And that story is

        16         a bit interesting in itself.

        17                        That book won some kind of prize from

        18         the Southern History.  And I don't know, you remind

        19         me that I wrote that.  I will be able to tell you

        20         why I wrote it, but it goes on.

        21   Q.    Let me ask you about your experience recently as the

        22         chair of the President's Initiative on Race?

        23   A.    Uh-huh.

        24   Q.    What was the initiative, or how did you become to be

        25         involved in that?





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         1   A.    Well, I can tell you what the initiative was.  The

         2         president decided very early in his administration

         3         that we had to do something about the problem of

         4         race in America.  This is President Clinton.

         5                        He come to North Carolina when he was

         6         running for president and asked if I would visit

         7         with him and I said, yes.

         8                        And I met him and the vice president

         9         candidate, the candidate for vice president and the

        10         family all at the same time, they came to Durham.

        11         And I met them all a week before the election in

        12         1992.

        13                        And then shortly after he became

        14         president, the next contact I had with the

        15         administration was through the vice president who

        16         said to me one day he said, you know, I want to know

        17         something more about race too.

        18                        And I wonder if you would help me

        19         understand it by providing the intellectual feed if

        20         I will provide the other kind of feed.

        21                        He said, I propose to hold three

        22         seminars at my house and then invite 25 or 30 people

        23         to each one of those.  And I would like for you to

        24         meet these--these would be influential people.  Some

        25         would be members of the cabinet, some will be





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         1         members of Congress, some will be scholars and so

         2         forth, and I did that for three consecutive weeks.

         3         The vice president and Mrs. Gore.

         4                        And my next contact I think was with

         5         the president, when he conferred on me the Medal of

         6         Freedom.  And he made a speech on me that day which

         7         surprised me, I didn't know he knew that much about

         8         me.  This was 1995.

         9                        And he told stories about me, some of

        10         which I shared with you, and I was really amazed.

        11         But it was shortly after that, that he began to talk

        12         to me about the Initiative of Race, which he had set

        13         up in the White House already.

        14                        And it was through that initiative

        15         that they began to develop programs of various parts

        16         of the government for the immediate racial

        17         situations in those departments and so forth.

        18                        And then finally, he decided he

        19         wanted an advisory board to the Initiative, which

        20         was staffed by people in the White House.

        21                        He wanted an advisory board that

        22         would recommend to him, that would study the

        23         situation and recommend to him some things that we

        24         thought he ought to do.

        25                        And the board was created on the 13th





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         1         of June, 1997, announced, it was the day.  And the

         2         next day it was announced at the meeting--at the

         3         commencement at the University of California

         4         San Diego.

         5                        The president met with us the day

         6         before, and he took us all out there in Air Force

         7         One, and we were really part of the commencement

         8         exercises back there at U of C San Diego.

         9                        And he made the announcement there,

        10         had all of us to stand.  Told what we were up to,

        11         what he wanted us to be up to, and he met with us

        12         and brought us back to Washington.

        13                        Then we were on our own after that.

        14         We were organized as an advisory board, under the

        15         public laws of the federal government, which meant

        16         that we were a public agency, no private meetings at

        17         all.

        18                        We were getting acquainted, we had to

        19         get acquainted in public.  It was awkward for me to

        20         say, now, what's your name and put that down.

        21                        But we began to develop a plan of

        22         work with staff of about 25 to 30 people who helped

        23         us.  And we decided to study various aspects of the

        24         problems of race in this country.

        25                        To start a dialogue is what the





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         1         president wanted us to do, is start a dialogue.

         2         Some people felt that that was not terribly

         3         necessary in view of the fact that we have been

         4         talking about race for three or 400 years.

         5                        But we felt that it was desirable,

         6         very necessary to look at the problem

         7         systematically, and to bring to bear on the problem

         8         the research and findings that scholars and

         9         statesmen had brought to it.

        10